Shapeshifting and Animal-headed Egyptian Gods Expand Messages Vidar Edland Message 1 of 6 , May 29, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 63115 invoked from network); 29 May 2001 22:14:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 29 May 2001 22:14:08 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 29 May 2001 22:14:08 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA07524 for nephilim-outgoing; Tue, 29 May 2001 14:26:46 -0700 From: "Vidar Edland" To: nephilim@... Subject: Shapeshifting and Animal-headed Egyptian Gods Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:03:39 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 May 2001 22:03:39.0333 (UTC) FILETIME=[375D3F50:01C0E88B] Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... And onto another matter... So does anyone have a plausible explanation (for Nephilim) on Shapeshifting? Is Shapeshifting restricted to certain Methas? Or can any Nephilim with the required Sorcery spell change shape? Or is each type of shapeshifting (Raven, Tiger, Dolphin etc.) a separate occult technique? I think I like the later the most. Anyhow, access to the secrets of shapeshifting seems rather restricted these days...? And what's the story on the animal-headed gods of Egypt (and elsewhere too)? Where they just a Human way to try to put the occult world (and especially the Nephilim) into a system? Or where there really animal-headed Nephilims once? Perhaps the animal-hybrid methas where somehow lost during the Akhenathon regime (a result of his rebellion against the old ways)? This might have restricted the forming of new animal-hybrid Nephilims so that no new ones where formed/born. This way there might still be some animal-hybrid Nephilim around from the time before Akhenathon? Just a few ideas and quesitons that came to me... Vidar Edland "Sade, es-tu diabolique ou divin?" -Enigma, Sadeness _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply kirkesque May 29, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 41657 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 06:35:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 May 2001 06:35:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 May 2001 06:35:44 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA09740 for nephilim-outgoing; Tue, 29 May 2001 22:51:12 -0700 Message-ID: <20010530062833.35922.qmail@...> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:28:33 -0700 (PDT) From: kirkesque Subject: Re: Shapeshifting and Animal-headed Egyptian Gods To: nephilim@... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... --- Vidar Edland wrote: > And onto another matter... > > So does anyone have a plausible explanation (for Nephilim) on > Shapeshifting? > Is Shapeshifting restricted to certain Methas? Or can any Nephilim > with the > required Sorcery spell change shape? Or is each type of shapeshifting > > (Raven, Tiger, Dolphin etc.) a separate occult technique? I think I > like the > later the most. I agree. If Shapeshifting were a practice, each "form" would have to be a seperate technique. ===== et in arcadia ego, -kirk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply Fabiano May 30, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 37556 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 18:35:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 May 2001 18:35:03 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta2 with SMTP; 30 May 2001 18:35:02 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA15603 for nephilim-outgoing; Wed, 30 May 2001 10:48:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <3B14B1F3.000007.01104@...> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 01:40:19 -0700 (Pacific Daylight Time) Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; boundary="------------Boundary-00=_7345WCW0000000000000" X-Mailer: IncrediMail 2001 (1400162) From: "Fabiano" References: X-Priority: 3 X-FID: FLAVOR00-NONE-0000-0000-000000000000 To: Subject: Re: Shapeshifting and Animal-headed Egyptian Gods Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... --------------Boundary-00=_7345WCW0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, probably the serpents-men in Robert Howard who fights against Conan are= probably Nephilims... Fabiano So does anyone have a plausible expl= anation (for Nephilim) on Shapeshifting? Is Shapeshifting restricted to ce= rtain Methas? Or can any Nephilim with the required Sorcery spell change s= hape? Or is each type of shapeshifting (Raven, Tiger, Dolphin etc.) a sepa= rate occult technique? I think I like the later the most. Anyhow, access t= o the secrets of shapeshifting seems rather restricted these days...? And= what's the story on the animal-headed gods of Egypt (and elsewhere too)? = Where they just a Human way to try to put the occult world (and especially = the Nephilim) into a system? Or where there really animal-headed Nephilims= once? Perhaps the animal-hybrid methas where somehow lost during the Akh= enathon regime (a result of his rebellion against the old ways)? This migh= t have restricted the forming of new animal-hybrid Nephilims so that no ne= w ones where formed/born. This way there might still be some animal-hybrid = Nephilim around from the time before Akhenathon? Just a few ideas and que= sitons that came to me... Vidar Edland "Sade, es-tu diabolique ou divin?" = -Enigma, Sadeness _________________________________________________________= ________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://w= ww.hotmail.com. -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscr= ibe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Tra= demark of Chaosium Inc. --------------Boundary-00=_7345WCW0000000000000 Content-Type: Text/HTML; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So, probably the serpents-men in Robert Howard who = fights against Conan are probably Nephilims...
Fabi= ano
=


So does anyone have a plausible explanation (for Nep= hilim) on Shapeshifting?
Is Shapeshifting restricted to certain = Methas? Or can any Nephilim with the
required Sorcery spell chan= ge shape? Or is each type of shapeshifting
(Raven, Tiger, Dolphi= n etc.) a separate occult technique? I think I like the
later th= e most. Anyhow, access to the secrets of shapeshifting seems rather =
restricted these days...?

And what's the story on the ani= mal-headed gods of Egypt (and elsewhere too)?
Where they just a = Human way to try to put the occult world (and especially
the Nep= hilim) into a system? Or where there really animal-headed Nephilims =
once? Perhaps the animal-hybrid methas where somehow lost during= the
Akhenathon regime (a result of his rebellion against the ol= d ways)? This
might have restricted the forming of new animal-hy= brid Nephilims so that no
new ones where formed/born. This way t= here might still be some animal-hybrid
Nephilim around from the = time before Akhenathon?

Just a few ideas and quesitons that c= ame to me...

Vidar Edland
"Sade, es-tu diabolique ou divin= ?"
-Enigma, Sadeness
_________________________________________= ________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail fr= om MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.


--
To unsubs= cribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to
neph= ilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of
= Chaosium Inc.
=
_______________________________= __________________
IncrediMail= - Email has finally evolved - = Click Here --------------Boundary-00=_7345WCW0000000000000-- Reply Vidar Edland May 30, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 5157 invoked from network); 30 May 2001 20:13:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.26) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 30 May 2001 20:13:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta1 with SMTP; 30 May 2001 20:13:25 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA00348 for nephilim-outgoing; Wed, 30 May 2001 12:26:26 -0700 From: "Vidar Edland" To: nephilim@... Subject: Re: Shapeshifting and Animal-headed Egyptian Gods Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 22:04:57 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 30 May 2001 20:04:57.0522 (UTC) FILETIME=[CCD8E120:01C0E943] Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... >>Is Shapeshifting restricted to certain Methas? Or can any Nephilim >>with the required Sorcery spell change shape? Or is each type of >>shapeshifting (Raven, Tiger, Dolphin etc.) a separate occult technique? I >>think I like the later the most. > >I agree. If Shapeshifting were a practice, each "form" would have to >be a seperate technique. Or maybe there are only one technique, but each Nephilim can only shapeshift into a creature corresponding to their Metha's Chinese Portrait ("If I were an animal, I would be...")? That way all Djinns would turn into lions, Angels into doves, Elves into foxes etc. although all use the same technique - Shapeshift (or whatever). So, what about the animal-headed gods then?... Vidar Edland "Sade, es-tu diabolique ou divin?" -Enigma, Sadeness. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply kirkesque May 30, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 8425 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 15:19:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by m8.onelist.org with QMQP; 31 May 2001 15:19:54 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta2 with SMTP; 31 May 2001 15:19:54 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA01100 for nephilim-outgoing; Thu, 31 May 2001 07:34:11 -0700 Message-ID: <20010531061312.41744.qmail@...> Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:13:12 -0700 (PDT) From: kirkesque Subject: Re: Shapeshifting and Animal-headed Egyptian Gods To: nephilim@... In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... --- Vidar Edland wrote: > Or maybe there are only one technique, but each Nephilim can only > shapeshift > into a creature corresponding to their Metha's Chinese Portrait ("If > I were > an animal, I would be...")? That way all Djinns would turn into > lions, > Angels into doves, Elves into foxes etc. although all use the same > technique > - Shapeshift (or whatever). > > That implies that all Neph of the same Metamorphose would have the same Chinese portrait. I have an angel who is most definately not a dove. If all characters had the same Portrait, they'd be little to do in the way of creating individual characters. ===== et in arcadia ego, -kirk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply Vidar Edland Message 6 of 6 , May 31, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 14852 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 21:59:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l9.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 May 2001 21:59:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 May 2001 21:59:20 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04865 for nephilim-outgoing; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:13:15 -0700 From: "Vidar Edland" To: nephilim@... Subject: Re: Shapeshifting and Animal-headed Egyptian Gods Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:51:38 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 May 2001 21:51:38.0454 (UTC) FILETIME=[DE835760:01C0EA1B] Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... >That implies that all Neph of the same Metamorphose would have the same >Chinese portrait. I have an angel who is most definately not a dove. >If all characters had the same Portrait, they'd be little to do in the >way of creating individual characters. I know! I realized this "mistake" just as I had posted the replay - the examples of chinese portraits are just that - examples. But still, the idea is that the Neph can only shapeshift into the animal of its Chinese Portrait... Vidar _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Re: Shapeshifting Expand Messages Peter Larsen Message 1 of 7 , May 30, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 90026 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 19:29:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 May 2001 19:29:14 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 May 2001 19:29:13 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA03845 for nephilim-outgoing; Thu, 31 May 2001 11:38:49 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 14:19:00 -0500 To: nephilim@... From: Peter Larsen Subject: Re: Shapeshifting Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... Michael Bishop says: >Er... maybe I missed ever reading this in the rules, but... since >When have Nephilim Shapeshifted, as such? I know, I know, there's >the metamorphosis - but this is gradual and involuntary, not a >"technique" one has to learn, and not something you can invoke at will. > >Have I missed something...? I've missed much of this discussion (and two or three others, which is what a job search will do to you), but I don't think Nephilim indulge in shapeshifting; it's a power of the KaIm, lost when they were forced to permenantly incarnate. Tales of shapeshifters are probably misunderstandings of metamorphosis and possibly Moon nephilim. The Selenim are more able to modify their simulacra (or possibly project a dream-self?); they may be the source of some legends. Mr. Young might enlighten (enshadow?) us here. If shapeshifting is done, it would be through fairly powerful magic -- high level powers of any magic style might do the trick, although I imagine that 3rd Circle Summoning would be your best bet if huge size changes are desired.... As for the Animal Heads -- I assume they are particular metamorphoses found in Ancient Egypt. After all, the 9+ metamorposes in the published rules are hardly the only ones possible. Considering that there aren't all that many nephilim, I assume that metamorphoses are more individualistic than we usually assume. So a set of metamorphoses that look like the Egyptian Gods are not that hard to imagine. They would be old, pre-Ahnkenaton. I suspect they either achieved Agartha or were wiped out between the Middle and New Kingdoms -- More "human-looking" gods like Isis and Osiris seemed to have replace the beast-heads (maybe they just hid their metamorphoses better). I like the idea of Horus being around as an Agarthan to inspire Crowley, but that's just me.... Peter Larsen -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply Michael Bishop May 30, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 10391 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 16:10:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.27) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 May 2001 16:10:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta2 with SMTP; 31 May 2001 16:10:36 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA02287 for nephilim-outgoing; Thu, 31 May 2001 08:21:43 -0700 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5.4 Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 09:17:21 +1000 From: "Michael Bishop" To: Subject: Re: Shapeshifting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by chaosium.com id IAA02285 Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... > >>> vidaredland@... 31/05/01 6:04:57 am >>> > >>Is Shapeshifting restricted to certain Methas? Or can any > >>Nephilim with the required Sorcery spell change shape? Or > >>is each type of shapeshifting (Raven, Tiger, Dolphin etc.) > >>a separate occult technique? I think I like the later the most. > > > >I agree. If Shapeshifting were a practice, each "form" would have to > >be a seperate technique. > > Or maybe there are only one technique, but each Nephilim can only > shapeshift into a creature corresponding to their Metha's Chinese > Portrait ("If I were an animal, I would be...")? That way all Djinns > would turn into lions, Angels into doves, Elves into foxes etc. > although all use the same technique - Shapeshift (or whatever). > > >So, what about the animal-headed gods then?... Er... maybe I missed ever reading this in the rules, but... since When have Nephilim Shapeshifted, as such? I know, I know, there's the metamorphosis - but this is gradual and involuntary, not a "technique" one has to learn, and not something you can invoke at will. Have I missed something...? Agarthan -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply Vidar Edland May 31, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 63470 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 22:13:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l10.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 May 2001 22:13:04 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 May 2001 22:13:04 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA04941 for nephilim-outgoing; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:22:55 -0700 From: "Vidar Edland" To: nephilim@... Subject: Re: Shapeshifting Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 00:01:20 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 May 2001 22:01:20.0908 (UTC) FILETIME=[39AEC4C0:01C0EA1D] Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... Michael Bishop wrote: >Er... maybe I missed ever reading this in the rules, but... since >When have Nephilim Shapeshifted, as such? I know, I know, there's >the metamorphosis - but this is gradual and involuntary, not a >"technique" one has to learn, and not something you can invoke at will. > >Have I missed something...? No you haven�t missed anything. I'd just like to discus how Shapeshifting might fit into the Nephilim cosmology, that�s all. Nephilim can already bend the laws of reality (Sorcery), invoke entities from beyond our reality (Summoning) and manipulate the building stones of our reality (Alchemy) + all the techniques of the Major Arcana (sourcebook) - why shouldn't they be able to shapeshift as well? (is shapeshifting only a product of human imagination or...?). Therefore I ask, does anyone have a plausible explanation for Shapeshifting for the Nephilim RPG? Vidar "Sade, es-tu diabolique ou divin?" -Enigma, Sadeness _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply Vidar Edland May 31, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 90761 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 22:20:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 May 2001 22:20:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 May 2001 22:20:05 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05053 for nephilim-outgoing; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:34:02 -0700 From: "Vidar Edland" To: nephilim@... Subject: Re: Shapeshifting Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 00:12:27 +0200 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 31 May 2001 22:12:27.0857 (UTC) FILETIME=[C7371C10:01C0EA1E] Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... Peter Larsen wrote: >I've missed much of this discussion (and two or three others, which >is what a job search will do to you), but I don't think Nephilim indulge in >shapeshifting; it's a power of the KaIm, lost when they were >forced to >permenantly incarnate. Tales of shapeshifters are probably >misunderstandings of metamorphosis and possibly Moon nephilim. The >Selenim >are more able to modify their simulacra (or possibly project a >dream-self?); they may be the source of some legends. Mr. Young might >enlighten (enshadow?) us here. If shapeshifting is done, it would be >through fairly powerful magic -- high level powers of any magic style > >might do the trick, although I imagine that 3rd Circle Summoning would > >be your best bet if huge size changes are desired.... But still, wouldn't the game benefit from it? It certainly wouldn't damage it (or?)... I feel Shapeshifting would add another aspect to the game, giving the players (and NPCs) yet another way of handling challenges and problems... >As for the Animal Heads -- I assume they are particular metamorphoses > >found in Ancient Egypt. After all, the 9+ metamorposes in the >published rules are hardly the only ones possible. Considering that >there >aren't all that many nephilim, I assume that metamorphoses are >more >individualistic than we usually assume. So a set of metamorphoses >that >look like the Egyptian Gods are not that hard to imagine. They >would be >old, pre-Ahnkenaton. I suspect they either achieved Agartha or >were wiped >out between the Middle and New Kingdoms -- More "human->looking" gods like >Isis and Osiris seemed to have replace the beast->heads (maybe they just >hid their metamorphoses better). I like the idea >of Horus being around as >an Agarthan to inspire Crowley, but that's >just me.... But how can a metamorphosis be "wiped out"? Or if the Nephilims just got better at hiding their metas, why did they "suddenly" start to conceal their true forms from the eyes of man? I agree that the Horus/Crowley idea is ratter cool... Vidar "Sade, es-tu diabolique ou divin?" -Enigma, Sadeness _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply John Machin May 31, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 16741 invoked from network); 31 May 2001 22:31:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 31 May 2001 22:31:25 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 31 May 2001 22:31:25 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA05215 for nephilim-outgoing; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:45:12 -0700 Message-ID: <005f01c0ea20$6eac1bc0$e8434fcb@oemcomputer> From: "John Machin" To: References: Subject: Re: Shapeshifting Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:14:14 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by chaosium.com id OAA05213 Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Larsen Subject: Re: Shapeshifting > As for the Animal Heads -- I assume they are particular > metamorphoses found in Ancient Egypt. After all, the 9+ metamorposes in the > published rules are hardly the only ones possible. Considering that there > aren't all that many nephilim, I assume that metamorphoses are more > individualistic than we usually assume. So a set of metamorphoses that look > like the Egyptian Gods are not that hard to imagine. They would be old, > pre-Ahnkenaton. I suspect they either achieved Agartha or were wiped out > between the Middle and New Kingdoms -- More "human-looking" gods like Isis > and Osiris seemed to have replace the beast-heads (maybe they just hid > their metamorphoses better). I like the idea of Horus being around as an > Agarthan to inspire Crowley, but that's just me.... They might just be symbolic masks - I know it is a cop out answer, but they could be some kind of magical artifact and not a Simulacra changing form. John Machin (trithemius@...) (ICQ 16537985) --------------------------------------------- "But turn from my tongue, o gods, the madness of these men, and from hallowed lips let a pure stream flow." --------------------------------------------- Empedocles: Physics 2(3) -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply Peter Larsen Jun 1, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 32359 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 14:10:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l7.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2001 14:10:20 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Jun 2001 14:10:19 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA08129 for nephilim-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 06:20:55 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.20010601085830.00907eb0@...> X-Sender: plarsen@... X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 08:58:30 -0500 To: nephilim@... From: Peter Larsen Subject: Re: Shapeshifting In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... Vidar Edland says: >But still, wouldn't the game benefit from it? It certainly wouldn't damage >it (or?)... I feel Shapeshifting would add another aspect to the game, >giving the players (and NPCs) yet another way of handling challenges and >problems... Sure, if it makes you happy. Shapeshifting, to my mind, is not really occult; it belongs more to the real of legend and fairie tale -- both potentially part of Nephilim, I hasten to add, but not the main part (in my opinion). When you see shapeshifting in near-modern or modern "systems," there's usually a large componant of "astral travel" or some other out of body approach -- Carlo Ginzburg's "The Night Battles" ("Benandanti" in Italian) deals with this in depth. At lot depends on how you want to focus your game; if it's more "legendary," shapeshifting would work just fine. In this case, really anything that makes you and your players happy. Can all nephilim do it? Make it an "elemental ability" based on Ka. Can only a few do it? Make it a third level Sorcery class of spells, etc. If you want it to be something fairly common but often unused, connect it to Summoning, which requires more preperation. And so on. >>So a set of metamorphoses >that >>look like the Egyptian Gods are not that hard to imagine. They >would be >>old, pre-Ahnkenaton. I suspect they either achieved Agartha or >were wiped >>out between the Middle and New Kingdoms -- More "human->looking" gods like >>Isis and Osiris seemed to have replace the beast->heads (maybe they just >>hid their metamorphoses better). >But how can a metamorphosis be "wiped out"? Or if the Nephilims just got >better at hiding their metas, why did they "suddenly" start to conceal their >true forms from the eyes of man? My point, rather badly expressed, is that I don't believe that there are that many "metamorphoses." Each Nephilim is different, and I expect the exact form of a metamorphosis changes over incarnations, as the nephilim becomes more aware of the elemental fields, experiences new things, etc. Obviously, more "metamorphosis points" is part of this, but I suspect a Djinn that lived in Babylon and Rome will not look quite the same today as it did then. I also think there are more "one-shot" metamorphoses than there are "tribes." For example, I don't believe that Elves make up 10% of the nephilim population. Anyway, there's no reason why the Egyptian Gods couldn't be individual nephilim with specific animal-headed metamorphoses. Those individuals could be killed, go to Agartha, etc. After Ahnkenaton, the anti-nephilim forces have a lot more information. The old God-priest model of the Great Compromise begins to be replaced, and nephilim rely a lot less on human cooperation for their support. Hiding is a lot more common post 1350BC. Of course, John Machin says: >They might just be symbolic masks - I know it is a cop out answer, but they could be some kind of magical artifact and not a Simulacra changing form. Not a cop-out. If everything has an occult explaination, where's the surprise when something does? The Carnaki Ghost-finder stories by Hodgeson are more effective because sometimes the answer is supernatural, sometimes it's not, and sometimes it's a mix of answers. Great fun. Peter Larsen -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply John Machin Message 7 of 7 , Jun 1, 2001 Show Message Received: (qmail 94499 invoked from network); 1 Jun 2001 22:21:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (10.1.10.142) by l8.egroups.com with QMQP; 1 Jun 2001 22:21:24 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO chaosium.com) (64.63.54.42) by mta3 with SMTP; 1 Jun 2001 22:21:24 -0000 Received: (from domo@localhost) by chaosium.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA10594 for nephilim-outgoing; Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:36:14 -0700 Message-ID: <008f01c0eae8$5702fde0$7b5e4fcb@oemcomputer> From: "John Machin" To: References: <3.0.1.32.20010601085830.00907eb0@...> Subject: Re: Shapeshifting Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2001 10:02:50 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by chaosium.com id OAA10592 Sender: owner-nephilim@... Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nephilim@... ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter Larsen Subject: Re: Shapeshifting > Sure, if it makes you happy. Shapeshifting, to my mind, is not really > occult; it belongs more to the real of legend and fairie tale -- both > potentially part of Nephilim, I hasten to add, but not the main part (in my > opinion). When you see shapeshifting in near-modern or modern "systems," > there's usually a large componant of "astral travel" or some other out of > body approach -- Carlo Ginzburg's "The Night Battles" ("Benandanti" in > Italian) deals with this in depth. At lot depends on how you want to focus > your game; if it's more "legendary," shapeshifting would work just fine. In > this case, really anything that makes you and your players happy. Can all > nephilim do it? Make it an "elemental ability" based on Ka. Can only a few > do it? Make it a third level Sorcery class of spells, etc. If you want it > to be something fairly common but often unused, connect it to Summoning, > which requires more preperation. And so on. Also perhaps it is a result of flamboyant Devils using their Khaiba techniques to assume fully Metamorphosised states, or Khaiba states? John Machin (trithemius@...) (ICQ 16537985) --------------------------------------------- "But turn from my tongue, o gods, the madness of these men, and from hallowed lips let a pure stream flow." --------------------------------------------- Empedocles: Physics 2(3) -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. Reply