Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:10:41 +1100 To: nephilim@... From: firths@... (Stephen Firth) Subject: Temporary Incarnation and Shamanism I am currently writing some scenarios set around the Pacific Rim and I was after people's ideas on temporary incarnation and shamanic practices. As I am a boffin scientist with dabblings in the occult and anthropology my ideas on these things may go a little awry at times and it doesn't help that all the Uni libraries are closed for the holidays, any advice from those more knowledgable in these areas greatly appreciated I see the Shaman as another path for Nephilim reminiscent of the Heirophant Arcarna, but with the Shaman as the spiritual guide for the community rather than the godhead to be worshipped. The incarnation is temporary and incomplete, the host-Neph relationship being more of a symbiosis. The human gains some spiritual understanding and has access to the accumulated memories and wisdom of the Neph, the Neph gains a willing host and the protective environment of the community. The totemic nature of Shamanic magic seems well divorced from the western magical tradition so I have proposed that Shamanic Neph view the magical fields differently to their western cousins. The traditional magic Elements become magical Natures: Sun - Life, Black Moon - Death, Fire - Ego, Water - Emotion, Air - Mind, Earth - Body, Moon - Spirit. Note that these are not different fields just different ways of viewing the fields, Fire may be creative and destructive but Ego may cause you to create or destroy. The Metamorphosis of the Shamanic Neph accounts for the totem animal aspects of Shamanic magic, when the incarnation occurs the human gains the physical metamorphosis of the Neph. This is the basic background to my Shamanic Nephilim, any comments welcome. Mad science is the only science Stephen Firth Trace Element Laboratory The Murdoch Institute for Research into Birth Defects The Royal Children's Hospital Melbourne, Australia. Phone: 9345 5042 Fax: 9348 1391 -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brilliant Mistake" To: Subject: Re: Temporary Incarnation and Shamanism Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 08:13:35 -0800 Stephen Firth writes regarding shamanism and totemism, inviting commentary. Well, rummaging through some old files of mine, I dug up this very incomplete little treatise on the history of shamanism with regard to the Nephilim. ********************* Selenim Influence ============= The first KaIm dissidents from the Golden Path settled in what is now known as Central America. In time they came to embrace the Black Moon and became the first Selenim. Theirs is a way of gathering Solar-Ka and re-diffracting it into a form they can utilise. With their Path of the Sarcophagus they survived for ages in the absence of human beings, but upon the advent of human migrations their greed for a richer source of Solar-Ka was awakened. While the human cultures of Central America generally start out relatively peaceful and not blood-thirsty, one by one they fall under the sway of the Selenim and develop traditions of elaborate and wide-scale blood sacrifice. Rejection of the Golden Path ===================== The Nephilim that came to the Americas subsequent to the Selenim had also eschewed the Golden Path, finding the manipulation of involuntary subjects immoral and distasteful (in such a manner as the Nephilim know morality and taste). The paths to which they had adapted both before and particularly after the fall of the Orichalka Meteor differed significantly from that of the Golden Path. Shamanism ========= This is a path originally developed in Central and North Asia, which travelled with the migrations of the Selenim hunters who crossed the Bering Land Bridge. Shamanism is more widely known among the Nephilim as Temporary Incarnation, wherein a contract has developed between the Nephilim and human communities to provide temporary host/guest relationships. In exchange for caring for the Nephilim's Stasis, often bound in a fetish or on "sacred ground", and for allowing periodic, if brief, possession of human bodies, the humans receive guidance and protection from the Nephilim via its magics. Totemism ======= Totemism is a path that bears a close resemblance to that of the Moon Arcanum of the Western Nephilim. While refusing to participate in a program to selectively breed a source of Solar-Ka, these Nephilim had no qualms about permanently inhabiting the bodies of pre-existing animal species. With the arrival of human beings the totemic Nephilim cautiously entered into social pacts with them, providing guidance and protection, while still refusing to incarnate in a human host. ********************* I wrote the above ideas about two years ago in response to widespread speculation here on the list that all Native American Nephilim would be practicing "shamanism", which I considered inaccurate. Shamanism, in its classic form, is unheard of among many tribes. At the very least, I would add totemism. There are certain tribes I can think of, notably those of the Navajo, whose magical traditions fit fairly smoothely with the standard form of Permanent Incarnation. Anyway, for a rough guideline as far as the North American section of the Pacific Rim goes, I'd generally say that starting up in Alaska you'll find a greater percentage of Shamanic Nephilim, blending into more and more Totemic Nephilim as you procede down the British Columbian coast. By the time you get to the state of Washington, Shamanic Nephs will be almost unheard of, though still possible in isolated pockets. The Shamanic Nephs start staging a comeback as you procede into the US Southwest and into Mexico, mixed with a bit of standard PI, and then one of the stronger concentrations of Selenim, of course. > The totemic nature of Shamanic magic seems well divorced from the > western magical tradition so I have proposed that Shamanic Neph view the > magical fields differently to their western cousins. The traditional magic > Elements become magical Natures: Sun - Life, Black Moon - Death, Fire - > Ego, Water - Emotion, Air - Mind, Earth - Body, Moon - Spirit. Note that > these are not different fields just different ways of viewing the fields, > Fire may be creative and destructive but Ego may cause you to create or > destroy. Oooh...now here's a can of worms I can hardly resist. Back about the time I wrote the blurb on Shamanic/Totemic Nephilim, I was also proposing a more universal system of Ka-elements, for which I was decried for the most part. Whatever -- I still think it's a better way of thinking of magical power as far as the Nephilim themselves are concerned. What I was proposing is that certain magic fields affect certain domains of existence, commonly attributed to the character stats in the game. Thus, there is one magical field that affects STR, another CON, another INT, and so on. This was criticised as being too GURPS-like, which was stupidly short-sighted, but I think your spin on it is much more semantically accurate and palatable. The real crux of my contention is, say, that the field that affects the Mind (INT) is perceived in one culture as Air, while another perceives it as Fire. Both cultures create a canon of spells that generally affect thought, intelligence...all facets of the mind. Similarly, one culture identifies Fire with the Mind, while another identifies it with Ego (STR). These two cultures *seem*, at first, to be talking about the same power, but a quick, rudimentary analysis reveals that they are actually utilising different magical fields. As far as cross-cultural spell use goes, in both cases above, it is effectively impossible. In the first instance, while they are both considering the same magicfal field, they each hold fundamentally different conceptions of what it is and how it should be manipulated. Thus, they find each other's spells to be conceptually "wrong" and unusable. In the second case, while they are thinking of the same semantic concept, they are utilising different magical forces -- one is symbolising Fire as the quickness of thought, while the other is portraying it as a power of physical exertion and destruction. Now, this system can easily and comfortably accomodate other mystical concepts such as Metal, Wood, Void, etc., by matching them to their best fit among the characteristics. At the same time, it avoids the unnecessary contention that they lack counterparts in other cultures, calling even more magical fields into existence. Well, I hope that's a little food for thought. I, too, am open to commentary. Gone, Ian -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:18:23 -0800 (PST) From: GINA MARIE AMODEO Subject: Re: Temporary Incarnation and Shamanism To: nephilim@... When looking at Voodoo and the idea of people being ridden, temporary incarnations make some sense to me, however when I think about shamans I see very little reason to create a different method than the traditional Nephilim modus. Often Shamans are hereditary and basically strange people. Why couldn't a shaman be a Nephilim who indeed is not worshipped as a god but instead has a slightly more honest relationship with his people, by admitting that he/she has magical powers and can commune with spirits because he/she has powers that most people do not. Even Voodoo and people being riddent could be explained in terms of Nephilim in Shouit or by Hanged Man Nephilim who occassionally come out. Often those who are ridden are chosen by a particular god and ridden by that god alone. Of course Shamanic Nephilim will probably have much different personal histories than the Nephs that were making Europe what it is today and therefore traditional Nephs might find those Shamanic folk difficult to deal with. Gintaras Valiulis and Gina Amodeo gin@... "And in the end the love you take is equal to the love you make." -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:48:58 -0500 To: nephilim@... From: plarsen@... (Peter Larsen) Subject: Re: Temporary Incarnation and Shamanism Everyone's talking Temporary Incarnation, with Ms. Amodeo saying: >When looking at Voodoo and the idea of people being ridden, temporary >incarnations make some sense to me, however when I think about shamans I >see very little reason to create a different method than the traditional >Nephilim modus. Often Shamans are hereditary and basically strange >people. Why couldn't a shaman be a Nephilim who indeed is not worshipped >as a god but instead has a slightly more honest relationship with his >people, by admitting that he/she has magical powers and can commune with >spirits because he/she has powers that most people do not. Even Voodoo >and people being riddent could be explained in terms of Nephilim in >Shouit or by Hanged Man Nephilim who occassionally come out. Often those >who are ridden are chosen by a particular god and ridden by that god >alone. Of course Shamanic Nephilim will probably have much different >personal histories than the Nephs that were making Europe what it is >today and therefore traditional Nephs might find those Shamanic folk >difficult to deal with. I agree. One of the problems I've had with discussions of Temporary Incarnation, Shamanism, etc is their reliance on different mechanisms for incarnation. It makes the world excessively complex. I favor a "Hanged Man" approach, where shamanism and similar traditions involve a more "primative" style of incarnation where the nephilim fused more closely with the simulacrum, denying it's own ego in favor of the host's. I assume this method has drawbacks -- some loss of past life experience, greater personality shifts for the nephilim, and a tendency to get lost in the simulacrum's concerns (helping the host's family instead of seeking Agartha, for example) come to mind. If we can make the difference between Old World and New World nephilim (or should that be Old World and Older World?) a matter of style instead of mechanism, it would be less clumsy. It would also explain the place for the Hanged Man in the Arcana; after all, wouldn't it have been easier for Anhkenaton to just ignore them? Not if they were the oldest tradition. Peter Larsen -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brilliant Mistake" To: Subject: Re: Temporary Incarnation and Shamanism Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:39:34 -0800 Gint writes (it was Gint, not Gina, right?)... > >...when I think about shamans I > >see very little reason to create a different method than the traditional > >Nephilim modus. Often Shamans are hereditary and basically strange > >people. Why couldn't a shaman be a Nephilim who indeed is not worshipped > >as a god but instead has a slightly more honest relationship with his > >people, by admitting that he/she has magical powers and can commune with > >spirits because he/she has powers that most people do not. Even Voodoo > >and people being riddent could be explained in terms of Nephilim in > >Shouit or by Hanged Man Nephilim who occassionally come out. -..and Peter agrees... > I agree. One of the problems I've had with discussions of > Temporary Incarnation, Shamanism, etc is their reliance on different > mechanisms for incarnation. It makes the world excessively complex. I > favor a "Hanged Man" approach... [snip] > If we can make the difference > between Old World and New World nephilim (or should that be Old World and > Older World?) a matter of style instead of mechanism, it would be less > clumsy. It would also explain the place for the Hanged Man in the Arcana; > after all, wouldn't it have been easier for Anhkenaton to just ignore them? > Not if they were the oldest tradition. When I first read Gint's post, I thought to myself, "Makes sense...but there's already the precedent of Temporary Incarnation to account for." But then I got to thinking that any mention of "Temporary Incarnation" amounts to little more than one or two sentences in the basic rulesbook, so what harm could there be in putting a different spin on it? Seen in this light, my little snippet on the Shamanic Path can easily be altered to consider dissidents from the Golden Path who, instead of the usual Permanent Incarnation are favoring a path where they remain in Shouit much/most of the time. Heck, it fits the model just fine, really. Now, when Peter mentioned how it fit these Nephilim in well with the plan of Akhenaton, everything seemed to fall right into place. I think you're dead-on, Peter. The Arcana that Akhenaton outlined seem to be a monumentally progressive attempt to embrace ALL of the paths of incarnation among the Nephilim -- even those that are commonly considered heresies. Creating the Hanged Man Arcanum to encompass the "shamanic" path ranks right in there with creating Arcana for the Moon to encompass the "totemic" path, the Unnamed/Death for the Selenim, and the Devil for...well, the devils. It may seem confusing that Akhenaton would have acknowledged his approval of these so-called heresies, but it's not so odd if you recognise that he merely acknowledged their existence and place in the universe, not necessarily approving (or dis-approving) of what they did. Perhaps most importantly, I agree with Peter's contention that creating a new mechanic for Nephilim incarnation only muddies the issue of what the Nephilim really are (or are not). This is similar to my contention that the creation of new elemental fields to account for differing mystical models worldwide is un-necessary and confusing. After all, as I've suggested in the past, the Nephilim themselves represent a higher and more fundamental order of exeistence than we mere mortals can comprehend, and our efforts to differentiate reality according to human cultures and nations are the result of clouded perception and intuition. Thus, along with the idea that there are ONLY five basic elemental fields affecting our planet (excluding Solar Ka, Black Moon Ka, and Orichalka), I'll add the notion that there is ONLY one basic method of incarnation in a living host, and that is Permanent Incarnation. How the Nephilim handles its own affairs with the Simulacrum thereafter are the differentiating factors. Gone, Ian -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:01:20 +1100 To: nephilim@... From: firths@... (Stephen Firth) Subject: Re: Temporary Incarnation and Shamanism Thanks for the ideas, the Hanged Man works well as the Spirit that communes with and guides the shaman. There is also the bonus that I don't have to go into new mechanics for what will be a set of short scenarios within a much larger campaign. One more question I have, this is more along the line of Ian's "only Five fields" but attitude/concept may differ. When a Neph is concieved what determines it's view of the magical fields? Western Neph pop out and see the fields as Air, Fire, etc, my Hanged Man/Shamanic Neph see Mind, Ego, etc and Eastern Neph (was it Xien Ren? It's been a long time since they have been mentioned on the list) see Wood, Void, etc. My idea is that the dominating culture of the area influences the culture of the new Neph. This would stop the genesis of a Xien Ren in western Europe in general but maybe allow it in Chinatown in a big city. Is the attitude/concept of the fields instinct or learned? Is a Neph born in the wilderness automatically Hanged Man/Shaman or is it just that it's first contact is with that type of Neph and that is what it learns? While we are on that track, can a new Neph speak Enochian? Once again, any comments are welcome. Mad science is the only science Stephen Firth Trace Element Laboratory The Murdoch Institute for Research into Birth Defects The Royal Children's Hospital Melbourne, Australia. Phone: 9345 5042 Fax: 9348 1391 -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Brilliant Mistake" To: Subject: Re: Temporary Incarnation and Shamanism Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:03:40 -0800 Stephen Firth asks a number of tough questions... > Is the attitude/concept of the fields instinct or learned? After all of my pontificating on the difference between conflicting magical field schemes being merely semantic, I'm afraid that I really don't know how to answer this one. I suppose that it is predominantly instinct -- the Nephilim looks about the world surrounding it for the places where certain types of power pool. For Western Nephilim, it's in fire, air, earth, water and the moon; for the Xian-ren it's in water, fire, earth, wood and metal; for many cultures it's according to the cardinal directions of the compass. The pinch, however, is that, by definition, a semantic difference is a matter of concept, and would therefore have to be learned. Without anyone to teach a newborn Nephilim a particular semantic difference, why would it instinctively go looking to fire for a certain magical field as opposed to metal, or the South? There's a mystery for you, but it's still a mystery I prefer over having a magical field that appears in one part of the world that chooses to believe in it, while not existing where people don't. > Is a Neph born in the wilderness automatically Hanged Man/Shaman or > is it just that it's first contact is with that type of Neph and that is what it > learns? Here, I think there's a better explanation for it. Becoming a Hanged Man/Shamanic Nephilim is probably a learned strategy. Say a Nephilim undergoes its first incarnation and chooses to dominate its host entirely. The change that comes over the host is viewed by the community at large as a malign transgression, an evil occurrance -- typically, it is seen as a possession, to the detriment of the community at large. As an evil transgressor (whether it intends evil or not) the community decides to save their comrade the ignominy of "demonic" possession and they kill him. After a few irritating rounds of this (if it even gets the opportunity to do this more than once -- a Nephilim in this position might well not get the chance to create a Stasis to support itself after the Simulacrum is killed), the Nephilim will have learned to co-operate with the host body and the community at large, manifesting in the individual for only limited periods of time. > ...can a new Neph speak Enochian? Yes. Enochian is a means of communicating through analogies relating to the five magical fields, creating a magical flow of colors, shapes, tones, what-have-you about it as it "speaks". It ought to be instinctual. Now, "Enochian", strictly speaking, is the means of communication of the Western Nephilim. Enochian is dependent upon the semantics and analogies inherent in the Fire/Earth/Water/Air/Moon scheme. The language that the Xian-ren use will be dependent upon a different set of analogies and semantics, and will therefore be mostly (if not entirely) unintelligible to Western Nephilim. The same will apply to Nephilim with differing schemes for the magical fields. I'm not exactly sure how to handle the Selenim's ability to understand and speak Enochian -- the french rules state that they are still capable, but I'm inclined to cut them off from it, substituting the Pavane/Tenebrae instead. Gone, Ian -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:00:40 -0500 To: nephilim@... From: plarsen@... (Peter Larsen) Subject: Re: Temporary Incarnation and Shamanism Mr. (Dr?) Firth asks: > Is the attitude/concept of the fields instinct or learned? Is a >Neph born in the wilderness automatically Hanged Man/Shaman or is it just >that it's first contact is with that type of Neph and that is what it >learns? While we are on that track, can a new Neph speak Enochian? The newly "born" nephilim experiences the elemental fields directly. It's only the concepts that attach to the fields that are different from culture to culture. Presumably the Field of Mars (whatever it's called) will always affect fire and STR, but it may affect creativity or not depending on the cultural references of the nephilim. Similarly, a nephilim is only going to develop a Shamanist incarnation strategy if it's taught one. It may be that the Totem and Shamen paths (as well as the Sarcophagus path and the Selenim) are more obvious to nephilim than the more "sophisticated" methods used in the West (and, one assumes, India, China, and so on), so a new "born" nephilim that's completely isolated may develop in that direction natuarally. Perhaps the apparantly low number of Shamanist nephilim has more to do with recruitment by the Arcana and similar groups as it does with the "primative" quality of the path or destruction of the human cultures that fostered it. It's my impression that first incarnation nephilim don't generally join Arcana, and even second or third incarnation nephilim are unlikely to be initiated; there's room to move around. So as, say, Native American simulacra became more scarce, there would be the temptation for New World nephilim to ally with the Arcana from Europe. There would still be cultural problems -- the magic systems are not really compatable, and retraining should be very difficult, if not impossible. All nephilim can "speak" Enochian; it's their natural method of communication. I'm not sure if nephilim should start being able to read it or speak the pigin version humans use, but those should be easy to pick up. I don't think of Pure Enochian as a language; it requires Ka-Vision, and it's as much like telepathy and reading auras than anything else. I assume that lots of (certain kinds of) information can be shared quickly, and that it's (almost) impossible to lie. -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... Nephilim is a Registered Trademark of Chaosium Inc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:15:06 -0500 To: nephilim@... From: plarsen@... (Peter Larsen) Subject: Re: Temporary Incarnation and Shamanism Mr. Absentia says: I suppose that it is predominantly instinct -- >the Nephilim looks about the world surrounding it for the places where certain >types of power pool. For Western Nephilim, it's in fire, air, earth, water and >the moon; for the Xian-ren it's in water, fire, earth, wood and metal; for many >cultures it's according to the cardinal directions of the compass. The pinch, >however, is that, by definition, a semantic difference is a matter of concept, >and would therefore have to be learned. Without anyone to teach a newborn >Nephilim a particular semantic difference, why would it instinctively go >looking to fire for a certain magical field as opposed to metal, or the South? The important thing to remember is that no nephilim really interacts with the Field of Fire, Wood, or anything else. Instead they interact with the Field of Mars, Jupiter, etc. It's the culture (nephilim and human) that determines what associations are made with that field. (I've just said this in my Post to Mr. Firth, so I'm not going to repeat the whole thing). > >> ...can a new Neph speak Enochian? > > Yes. Enochian is a means of communicating through analogies relating to >the five magical fields, creating a magical flow of colors, shapes, tones, >what-have-you about it as it "speaks". It ought to be instinctual. > Now, "Enochian", strictly speaking, is the means of communication of the >Western Nephilim. Enochian is dependent upon the semantics and analogies >inherent in the Fire/Earth/Water/Air/Moon scheme. The language that the >Xian-ren use will be dependent upon a different set of analogies and semantics, >and will therefore be mostly (if not entirely) unintelligible to Western >Nephilim. The same will apply to Nephilim with differing schemes for the >magical fields. I'm not exactly sure how to handle the Selenim's ability to >understand and speak Enochian -- the french rules state that they are still >capable, but I'm inclined to cut them off from it, substituting the >Pavane/Tenebrae instead. I see Enochian ("Pure" Enochian, again) as direct communication between the Fields of one nephilim and the fields of another. There may be some difficulty between the various dialects (Western, Selenim, Chinese, Native American, but communication should be possible). Peter Larsen -- To unsubscribe from the Nephilim ML, send an "unsubscribe" command to nephilim-request@.... 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